tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post5954555587381599579..comments2023-12-21T00:14:42.856-06:00Comments on A Religious Liberal Blog: Women PastorsDwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01022414933969854363noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-31052497229883776392008-07-19T13:25:00.000-05:002008-07-19T13:25:00.000-05:00Forgive me if I repeat something that may have alr...Forgive me if I repeat something that may have already been stated. I read the first 1/2 dozen posts and then skipped to the end.<BR/><BR/>I think when we look at this issue we have to start at the beginning. Back in the Garden of Eden, God created man first and then He created woman as man's help mate. As the Bible states in Gen 2:18 - Then the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03141574246580016103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-77639318996717804512007-10-01T16:54:00.000-05:002007-10-01T16:54:00.000-05:00women can pastor. God said that in the last days h...women can pastor. God said that in the last days he would pour his spirit on all flesh. After all Anna preached in the book of Luke. Paul said that we were all one in christ jesus. Study your scripture and get it right. That verse in timothy is not a spirtual teaching because it spoke about adam and eve. they were husband and wife. not sheep and shepard. get it right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-59331037850271566532007-06-20T17:16:00.000-05:002007-06-20T17:16:00.000-05:00"I hold to my view of the Bible just as strongly a..."I hold to my view of the Bible just as strongly as you hold to yours. Should I change my way of thinking because the majority on a liberally religious blog has a different opinion than me."<BR/><BR/>You claimed that you treat the Bible properly and we do not. You claimed that no profitable discussion can take place because of this. I'm the defensive one? I did not suggest that you should Virginiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11859849962303304787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-65804963619849069372007-06-20T16:46:00.000-05:002007-06-20T16:46:00.000-05:00Jonathan,Intersex people are people born with phys...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>Intersex people are people born with physical characteristics that do not mark them as male or female. You might know them as "hermaphrodites." They can have XX or XY or some mixture of chromosomes. They can have testes, ovaries, or both. They can have large (often called a penis), small (often called a clitoris), or medium sized phalluses (which are hard or impossible to Virginiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11859849962303304787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-35501983763926846552007-06-20T07:09:00.000-05:002007-06-20T07:09:00.000-05:00"attributes and roles that God expressly created t..."attributes and roles that God expressly created them for."<BR/><BR/>Except that you can't seem to identify what those attributes are. In fact, you write "It's not about a comparison. It's not about characteristics" <BR/><BR/>So if there are no differences to be identified, no characteristics to be found that separate women and men, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that women are Dwighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01022414933969854363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-72369744559656567592007-06-20T06:46:00.000-05:002007-06-20T06:46:00.000-05:00Jonathan,In response to "It is obvious that this c...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>In response to "It is obvious that this cannot be a sustaining conversation."<BR/>I don’t agree because as you and the others have conversations, more points are brought out to individuals who may be reading this blog but not responding. Perhaps it will help them decide which road to take, fundamentalism, liberalism, or somewhere in between.<BR/><BR/>In response to "Neither ofAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-62285817822909017602007-06-20T06:04:00.000-05:002007-06-20T06:04:00.000-05:00The "agree to disagree" I put out there for a reas...The "agree to disagree" I put out there for a reason, but in fairness I will answer Virginia's since she hasn't been here the whole time.<BR/><BR/><I>"What do you think God or the Bible says about intersex people called to ministry?"</I><BR/><BR/>Simple. They are in sin. Sexual orienation approved by God is only male and female. Whether you like that or not is up to you, but God clearly jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13291596142205783592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-36457597359653450322007-06-19T23:16:00.000-05:002007-06-19T23:16:00.000-05:00Jonathan,What do you think God or the Bible says a...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>What do you think God or the Bible says about intersex people called to ministry?<BR/><BR/>Also, if God calls me to ordained ministry, as a woman, would you require me to ignore God in favor of your interpretation of scripture?<BR/><BR/>Finally, do you honestly believe you do fully unbiased interpretation of scripture while the others here are less faithful? If so, why are youVirginiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11859849962303304787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-42325034789234580252007-06-19T19:07:00.000-05:002007-06-19T19:07:00.000-05:00It is obvious that this cannot be a sustaining con...It is obvious that this cannot be a sustaining conversation.<BR/><BR/>Neither of you, Dwight or Eli, see the Bible as the Word of God. You both believe that you can view it depending on your personal circumstances, rather than seeing it for what it is. You also believe that other experiences are equally as valid, if not more valid, than what the Bible says.<BR/><BR/>If that is your foundationaljonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13291596142205783592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-73866736732640635912007-06-19T15:09:00.000-05:002007-06-19T15:09:00.000-05:00By the way, Jonathan, it is not that I am ignoring...By the way, Jonathan, it is not that I am ignoring the Bible verses you state, it is just that I completely disagree with your interpretation with what the Bible verses are saying. I see nowhere in the Bible that states women cannot be church leaders. Again, in context, Paul is speaking to a specific minister (Timothy) concerning things happening in his Church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-64280533124065453132007-06-19T14:58:00.000-05:002007-06-19T14:58:00.000-05:00Amen, DwightAmen, DwightAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-45896292312182306432007-06-19T14:55:00.000-05:002007-06-19T14:55:00.000-05:00JonathanThe scriptures say "come, let us reason to...Jonathan<BR/><BR/>The scriptures say "come, let us reason together". I assume that the best thought from the widest range of experiences from the testimony of scripture to other faith traditions to the church to current and past experience all play a role in formulating what we believe to be the best course of action. <BR/><BR/>If there is no reason outside of a verse, if the other voices in the Dwighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01022414933969854363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-66865601956453266412007-06-19T14:49:00.000-05:002007-06-19T14:49:00.000-05:00Jonathan,In comparing Romans 16:1 (I commend to yo...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>In comparing Romans 16:1 (I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae), in the original Greek with 1 Timothy 3:12 (Deacons must be husbands of one wife, good managers of their children and their own households), you will notice the same root word for deacon (Anglicized to diakonos). It was only some translators (who I believe wanted to degrade Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-90494845749649522462007-06-19T12:50:00.000-05:002007-06-19T12:50:00.000-05:00"in what way are women created such that they are ...<I>"in what way are women created such that they are not as well suited as a man is to lead a church? What features would you point to? It's certainly not because a man has a penis is it? There must be something more involved...what is it?"</I><BR/><BR/>It's pretty simple actually: <BR/><BR/>"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13291596142205783592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-80914419631307446112007-06-19T12:19:00.000-05:002007-06-19T12:19:00.000-05:00I think it's possible that God can use the culture...I think it's possible that God can use the culture to correct the church. <BR/><BR/>But I realized the assumption I'm operating under. It comes from Aristotle: if one wants to determine function or purpose of anything you can determine it by if it does it well. Since I know women pastors who execute their office with great skill and to great effect for God I assume that their purpose was to be a Dwighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01022414933969854363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-34007918656668353742007-06-19T12:07:00.000-05:002007-06-19T12:07:00.000-05:00JonathanOnce you remove the functions of the pasto...Jonathan<BR/>Once you remove the functions of the pastor as a criteria for who can lead, and you remove gender differences then the question I ask is: in what way are women created such that they are not as well suited as a man is to lead a church? What features would you point to? It's certainly not because a man has a penis is it? There must be something more involved...what is it?Dwighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01022414933969854363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-4103120889504965152007-06-19T11:52:00.000-05:002007-06-19T11:52:00.000-05:00"But you have found a verse (and the assumption of...<I>"But you have found a verse (and the assumption of gender in the description of Titus),"</I><BR/><BR/>Huh? There is no assumption of gender. Have you read the verse?<BR/><BR/>1 Timothy 3:1-7: <BR/>It is a trustworthy statement: if any <B>man</B> aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work <B>he</B> desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the <B>husband of one wife<jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13291596142205783592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-48463383274407508822007-06-19T11:41:00.000-05:002007-06-19T11:41:00.000-05:00The verses in Titus and Timothy are not overuling ...The verses in Titus and Timothy are not overuling other passages in the Bible because they are the only ones that speak to pastoralship at all.<BR/><BR/>This IS NOT ABOUT the ability of woman vs. a man's ability. I don't know how many times I have made that statement. It isn't about feminism or chauvenism, or about which gender is better. It's about the way God created us, and the way he has jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13291596142205783592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-3437428392183932552007-06-19T10:40:00.000-05:002007-06-19T10:40:00.000-05:00JonathanWhat does a pastor do? I'm thinking of the...Jonathan<BR/><BR/>What does a pastor do? I'm thinking of the verses Eli posted, as well as Miriam's role<BR/><BR/>-prophecy<BR/>-instruction<BR/>-shepherding<BR/>-proclamation of the good news <BR/><BR/>If we have examples of women doing all these things in the Bible one might come to the conclusion that women can and do perform every function a pastor does. So what is the difference between the Dwighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01022414933969854363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-8721474707950496602007-06-19T09:28:00.000-05:002007-06-19T09:28:00.000-05:00Right now there happens to be a massive, civil, we...Right now there happens to be <A HREF="http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/3753/" REL="nofollow">a massive, civil, well-policed discussion of WO</A> at the conservative low-church Anglican site Stand Firm.Ecgberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354592772973677609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-67553076856836869352007-06-19T09:25:00.000-05:002007-06-19T09:25:00.000-05:00Eli-It is obvious that you have no wish to conside...Eli-<BR/><BR/>It is obvious that you have no wish to consider the verses that speak specifically about who and what a pastor should be. It is also obvious that you are more than comfortable throwing aside verses that speak to the God-ordained roles of men and women in the church. <BR/><BR/>If you want to invoke Jesus, then look at how he explains the use of roles and equality.<BR/><BR/>Jesus jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13291596142205783592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-60394742902722957112007-06-18T21:56:00.000-05:002007-06-18T21:56:00.000-05:00Jonathan,In response to:As for your comment, Eli, ...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>In response to:<BR/>As for your comment, Eli, about the head coverings for women...you have mistaken the meaning behind that. Paul was speaking on modesty, as he did in 1 Timothy 2:9-13. It was immodest, in that culture, for a woman to have her hair uncovered (especially in a reverent place like a church)…<BR/>Today the head covering for women is not customary, but we should Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-29553162469275188382007-06-18T16:31:00.000-05:002007-06-18T16:31:00.000-05:00Prsonally, being a Southern Baptist, I see women i...Prsonally, being a Southern Baptist, I see women in more or as many leadership positions in the church. Some women are better equipped to preach than some men. But as far as I know, Southern Baptist allow and encourage women to teach and "preach" to women. That doesn't sound so restrictive to me. Unless you consider teacihng or preaching to women only as inferior, and the real sign of being a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-2976502344510305222007-06-18T11:55:00.000-05:002007-06-18T11:55:00.000-05:00A website confirming Wiley Davis signing of a decl...A website confirming Wiley Davis signing of a declaration of support for James Kopp, an abortion clinic bomber:<BR/>http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=743<BR/><BR/>And one denying it:<BR/>http://twelvewitnesses.com/2007/05/03/art-rogers-wiley-drake-wes-kenney-james-kopp-abortion-murderer/<BR/><BR/>As for me, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5567830.post-60479664407591728022007-06-18T11:41:00.000-05:002007-06-18T11:41:00.000-05:00I wanted to add in a comment from the previous dis...I wanted to add in a comment from the previous discussion...we are "one in Christ" under faith. That is the context the chapter, as it was speaking about sin and salvation.<BR/><BR/>The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by gracejonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13291596142205783592noreply@blogger.com