A Religious Liberal Blog

This site hopefully can provide some vehicle by which I can comment, complain, and once in a while praise the state of religion in this country and around the world from a liberal protestant perspective.

Thursday, May 24, 2007

Ending the War

Today the congress and in particular the Democrats failed to pass war funding that restored accountability and began the process of ending this war. In that they failed to represent the majority of Americans.

But one should acknowledge that presidential candidates, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Chris Dodd, Dennis Kucinich, and Ron Paul all voted against this bill. And John Edwards has been organizing folks to oppose this legislation. His site on this issue is worth checking.

Edwards also spoke at the Council of Foreign Relations saying "As president, I will close Guantanamo Bay, restore habeas corpus, and ban torture. Measures like these will help America once again achieve its historic moral stature". Will other candidates commit to this?


At 12:31 PM , Anonymous Kelly Fryer said...

Just found your blog - it's current & challenging. Thanks for working it. Frankly, I was stunned by the NO vote cast by the Democratic front runners. I guess the 70%+ poll numbers showing that people really ARE frustrated and angry about this war finally convinced them it was "safe!" Is it just me shaking my head in disbelief that we could have a woman, an African-American, and a Mexican-American all as serious contenders for the presidency of the United States...and I'm STILL not excited about our choices?!?! Anyway, I like your blog. I'm working similar territory. And I'd be honored if you would include a link to mine. I can be found at http://ReclaimingtheFWord.typepad.com.

At 2:50 PM , Blogger Jonathan said...

Frustration is not a just cause to leave a nation completely defenseless, and that is exactly what we would be doing if we pulled out at this point.

I don't like the way the war has turned out, and sure I think that things could have been done differntly. But that just makes mes a Monday Morning quarteback with no solution, and that is what most of the wining senators in DC look like.

Unless they have an answer to save the nation of Iraq from Civil War, and death tolls far wrose than what we have witnessed so far, then the best thing we need to do is support the plans of generals on the ground and push for succes as soon as possible, rather than just grinding out teeth and quitting in the middle of an all to important race.

At 2:56 PM , Blogger Dwight said...

The question is whether us being there is preventing or exasperating the conditions that make for civil war. There's a lot of indications that the latter is the case.

At 5:22 PM , Blogger Jonathan said...

Certainly not, otherwise things would have already started. Undoubtedly if we left, Civil War would begin almost immediately. With no grearter force to keep the religious extremists at bay (from killing each other, that is), and a toddler government left to fend for itself, the only conclusion would be civil war. Leaving certainly wouldn't HELP the cause of stifling a possible Civil War.

So far, we have been dealing with militants from other countries. The only people that actually believe the aggressors are primarily Iraqi probably are related to Rosie O'Donell in some way. The military commanders on the ground have already confirmed that the terrorist attacks continue to be formed by militant groups based primarily out of Syria and Iran.

Sadly, Speaker Pelosi probably missed that briefing since she was "too busy" to report to the Sentate the day the military commanders gave a brief on the war.

At 2:48 AM , Blogger Dwight said...

have a feeling we wouldn't be discussing civil war had we never invaded Iraq in the first place.

But the problem is, how does one prevent it if we are busy taking sides in it, along with the Iraqi gov't; in this case our side appears to be the Shia. The idea of building a ghetto for the Sunni came out of the Bush administration for instance. At some point we're already implicated in this.

As a side note, the Christian Science Monitor estimates that 4-10% of those fighting are non Iraqis. Apparently they agree with Rosie.

At 2:52 PM , Blogger Jonathan said...

Dwight...OK. Not to sound totally disrepspectful, but come dude.

"have a feeling we wouldn't be discussing civil war had we never invaded Iraq in the first place."

You're right. Thousands of people were dying instead by the hand of their own leader through terrible devices and poor decision making. It was much better back with Hussein, right?

"But the problem is, how does one prevent it if we are busy taking sides in it, along with the Iraqi gov't; in this case our side appears to be the Shia. The idea of building a ghetto for the Sunni came out of the Bush administration for instance. At some point we're already implicated in this."

If that was truly the case, and we had taken a side, then why would we build a wall to put the two groups in a national timeout? (not agreeing with the whole wall thing, just making a point).

If we really wanted to take sides, we would. There is certainly a push for equality, and just because decisions lean one way or the other doesn't all of a sudden determine a bias towards one group over another.

"As a side note, the Christian Science Monitor estimates that 4-10% of those fighting are non Iraqis. Apparently they agree with Rosie."

The Christian freaking Science Monitor? Are you kidding? That's a GREAT source to pick, huh?

Lemme try...How about the United States government? The have estimated that 90% or more of the hundreds of suicide bombings has been carried out by non-Iraqis. Indeed, the late Jordanian terrorist al Zarqawi claimed credit for 850 successful suicide bombings.

Iranians have been boastfully attacking on a "hit and run" basis since last year...except they retreat and stay IN Iraq. Al Queada has also been attacking as well...which brings up another point.

Who captured our soldiers? Iraqis? No, Al-Quaeda...you know the guys that liberals have stated numerous times aren't in Iraq, even though the military has said otherwise.

Military and government leaders have confirmed multiple times that the main group we are fighting comes from outsides sources. You can accept that, or not.

Do you agree with Rosie, Dwight? Do you believe American soldiers are terrorists? Do you believe that Christians are worse than terrorists? Do you think steel can't be melted?

At 3:51 PM , Blogger Dwight said...

Most estimates place the death toll since the Us invasion at above 600,000 Iraqis. We're on the brink if not in civil war. We've had 2 million people flee the country. And we've created a power vacuum that countries like Iran and groups like Al Queda have taken advantage of. None of those conditions existed under Saddam Hussein. So yes, while life wasn't great, it's demonstrably worse now.


"In Washington, a senior State Department official called foreign fighters "an important element to the insurgency," but added that "it would be a mistake to imagine that this isn't a largely Iraqi-based operation with critical support from foreign elements." Apparently agreeing with Rosie as well.

I'm not sure where your other questions come from, but yes Christians can be terrorists, so can Muslims, so can people of any or no religion. Sin is much larger than any given religion.

At 6:20 PM , Blogger Jonathan said...

My other questions were direct comments made by Rosie during her spiel time on "The View"...and you did a nice job avoiding them.

I didn't ask you if Christians COULD be terrorists, I asked you if they WERE terrorists. Not if they COULD act in such a way, but if Christians are equal to Osama Bin Laden and his gang.

Studies like these end up showing results like 600,000 dead. Interestingly, no respectable news organization, politician, or member of the government has ever matched that rediculous number.

Keep in mind also that nearly all of the deaths have been terrorist related, be that in car bombings to roadside traps to suicide bomb men.

And according to the IBC report, 64,000 have been killed, with 24,000 in the first two years. The max possible: 70,000.

Hussein killed that many in a few days with biological weapons. He tortured his people for any reason, and ran a culture of fear. Don't tell me things are worse.

She also said that American soldiers are terrorists. Would you agree with that? Even on memorial day?

Oh, and PLEASE! tell me you know steel can be melted...

At 8:26 PM , Blogger Dwight said...

I have to admit, the holiday that interests this time of year is Ascension Sunday. I don't watch the View, never have. But there are Christian terrorists. Look at the history of Northern Ireland. But no, not all people of a given religion are terrorists.

Our governmentt has refused to identify Iraqi deaths. It makes for bad television. Also why you can't show coffins on tv either. But that doesn't make us less culpable. I'm not saying Hussein was good. I'm saying we made it worse. And we're left with no good options.

I do think most candidates who favor withdrawal support some contingency force, either in a neighboring country or in Iraq to prevent the worst. But few think that an indefinite stay by the US will "solve" the violence, for some its a reason to continue it.

At 4:59 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm wondering about you liberals - on the issue of Iran. What's your take on the weapons procurement of the Iranian government? Would you oppose action because you have opposed Iraq action, or would you see it as a separate issue? Under what circumstances would you believe a U.S. military strike on Iran to be appropriate?

At 10:07 PM , Blogger Curious George said...

I'm likewise surprised by the Democratic frontrunners' opposition to this bill, but need to study it further. I invite you to visit my blog at curiousprimate.blogspot.com.

At 10:07 AM , Blogger Jonathan said...

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the conservations...crazy Memorial Day weekend.

I have to head to my brother's band parade...but I can still leave this link.

I wonder if they will read it or not...they didn't seem to read the other links I have been listing...


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